The Co-op and Condo Insider
The Co-op & Condo Insider is your trusted source for expert commentary led by advocates within New York City’s co-op and condo world. Each episode offers insights into the challenges, news, and stories that shape a community making up more than 20% of this great city’s residents.
The Co-op and Condo Insider
Inside the Co-op World
What happens when one-fifth of New York City residents share a common housing challenge but lack a unified voice? Geoffrey Mazel, co-op attorney with 40+ years of experience, launches the Co-op and Condo Insider podcast to bridge this critical information gap.
Mazel's journey began at 28 when he became president of Glen Oaks Village, the largest converted co-op east of the Mississippi. That experience launched a career dedicated to addressing the unique challenges facing cooperative and condominium housing across New York City and State. As he explains to co-host Richard Solomon, these housing communities represent an essential segment of affordable housing that remains largely misunderstood by the general public and policymakers alike.
The podcast explores the stark reality facing co-op boards today: navigating rising operational costs while confronting a tsunami of regulations and unfunded mandates from government agencies. Local Law 97, the Climate Mobilization Act, emerges as a particular threat, potentially forcing many co-ops into insolvency through economically and physically unfeasible electrification requirements. Against well-funded environmental and industry lobbyists, grassroots co-op advocates are fighting to protect what Mazel calls "precious housing stock."
Yet there's hope in collective action. When former Governor Andrew Cuomo met with 26 board presidents representing nearly 30,000 units of co-op housing, he told them: "You guys have a lot of power. You don't even know it." Mazel's response? "We do know it, we just don't know how to harness it." Through legislative victories like fixing a critical Fannie Mae financing issue that saved 10,000 housing units, the co-op community is learning to flex its political muscle.
Subscribe now to hear from the elected officials, industry professionals, and everyday residents shaping the future of cooperative and condominium housing in New York. Whether you're a board member, resident, or professional working in this space, each episode delivers practical insights you won't find anywhere else.
And then we met with Andrew Cuomo, governor Cuomo. He met with a group of 26 board presidents representing almost 30,000 units of co-op housing in Glen Oaks. It was an impressive meeting. He was impressed. I don't think we were on his radar or on his agenda. We are now and he said you guys have a lot of power. You don't even know it. I said we do know it, we just don't know how to harness it.
Speaker 2:This is the Co-op and Condo Insider, the podcast dedicated to New York's cooperative and condominium community. This is your trusted source for the latest insights, strategies and stories shaping the world of shared housing. You will hear from the people who are leaders in this community information and insights you will not hear anywhere else. If you want to stay ahead of the curve, you're in the right place. The views and opinions expressed on this program do not necessarily reflect those of the host or any affiliated individuals or organizations.
Speaker 1:All right. Hello, welcome to the Co-op and Condo Insider. This is where we explore the real world issues facing the co-op and condo community across New York City and New York State, with insight, expertise and a healthy dose of straight talk. I'm one of your co-hosts, Geoffrey Mazel. Many of you might know I'm a co-op attorney and legal advisor to the President's Co-op and Condo Council and I'm thrilled to be joined by my co-host, richard Solomon. A seasoned voice in public radio for over 20 years, richard has taken his listeners around the world to meet experts, newsmakers and the people making a real difference in our everyday lives. This podcast is here to explore the legal, operational and political challenges facing the co-op and condo community. The question is who's going to be interested in this podcast? I know I am. I know Richard is.
Speaker 1:In New York City, over 700,000 units of housing live in a cooperative condominium and one of the reasons I felt this was necessary and important is it's an underserved community with respect to information, with respect to political clout and with respect to knowledge in general about unifying issues. As an attorney in this field for 40 years, I have to repeat myself one meeting after another after another, and I have to advise people what's happening in the co-op community. It was my feeling that, starting a podcast, co-op and Condo Insider because I am the insider, I've done the math. I've been to, I've done the math, richard, it's scary. I've been to over 5 stories, co-ops and condos with amazing stories and nobody gets to share them, and that's what I felt this could bring to this community. Richard, this is our first episode, so I figured I would have somebody interview me and then I will. In future episodes, I'll turn the tables and I'll be the guy that gets to ask some of the questions. So, richard, thank you for co-hosting and it's a pleasure to have you.
Speaker 3:And thank you for the honor. It's a true honor. I've known you a very, very long time and you know I'm someone who has got a passion for co-ops and condos myself. To me, co-ops are like the great mystery out there, because a lot of people don't really understand them. You go to other states and they don't well, what's a co-op? They don't understand. It's not necessarily real estate. It's almost like you own stock in a business as opposed to dirt. When you have a deed to a house, you own dirt and everything on that. Obviously, you had a journey that started long ago, 5,000 meetings ago. How did that start? How did that start? By the way, we should call Guinness and see if there's a record that we can maybe put you in.
Speaker 1:A sad record indeed, but it won't be broken.
Speaker 1:Just to go back to your initial comment, and I'll be speaking to a friend or neighbor, whoever, and they'll say, oh, so-and-so is buying an apartment. I'll go is that a co-op or condo? They'll say, co-op, condo, whatever. And that makes me cringe because the differences are night and day. And um, also, I have done work nationally and there was a national co-op alliance. Most of the co-ops in that national alliance are are commercial co-ops, not housing. New York city is the only only city in the world with really a large batch of co-op housing, so it is a niche type of housing, it's a niche industry and we are in a unique field here.
Speaker 1:To get back to Geoffrey Mazel, which it's nice to talk about myself once in a while Most people don't want to hear it, but now they will I moved into Glen Oaks Village as a very young man. I just got married, I was 23 years old. As my mother-in-law used to say, I was suffering from excessive youthfulness and I was. Eventually I was renting actually, and I was. Eventually I was renting actually, and eventually I bought and I was in a law firm where the partners taught us it's very important to bring in business, Join things, join boards, join your temple, your church, you know a local, a local not for profit, just just to be able to expose yourself. So I joined the Glen Oaks.
Speaker 1:Well, I was asked to run for the Glen Oaks Village Board and didn't realize I was walking into essentially a political meat grinder because there was a sponsor. His name was Gerald Gutterman. Those of you who were around in the 80s might remember that name. He was a tycoon of the co-op industry. He was the guy that converted more units than probably anybody in the city and he ran co-ops with an iron fist. And when he heard a young lawyer wanted to run for the board, he said over my dead body.
Speaker 1:Well, of course I was dumb and stupid and inexperienced at that point, with all good traits at that point, Cause if I I'm sure, if I thought it through, I would not have run for the board. But I did run for the board and I literally went door to door to get proxies and I always tell clients now well, how do I? I can never get on the board. I said, yes, you can. You can solicit proxies door to door. So here was this fresh face kid knocking on doors. I got enough proxies, I got elected to the board and eventually I became the president, at 28 years old, of a 3000 unit co-op again, uh, you know, dumb luck. But also I didn't realize I was in the largest converted co-op east of the Mississippi and I was getting tremendous, tremendous experience in the operations and the legal side of co-ops and that sort of leveraged into a client base eventually in co-ops. And here I am 40 years later talking to the great Rich Solomon about co-ops.
Speaker 1:And here here I am, you know, 40 years later, talking to the great rich solomon about co-ops well, I think one of the co-op presidents that I met through you in some of the radio shows that we've done together um, was that co-ops are considered to be affordable housing yeah, that that's a great point and and, um, most it's's one we emphasize in the co-op community, both in my legal practice and my advocacy for co-op boards that New York City, if you look at the one and two family homes in New York City and this is mostly the whole area, the near you know, long island, westchester and you see a small house that looks like nothing and you ask what's the price of that house? And it's it's north of a million dollars. Uh, what young couple uh can afford that? What young person can afford that? What, what you know, uh, moderately income, middle income people can afford that. What moderately income, middle income people can afford that? Not too many.
Speaker 1:However, if you go around the corner and possibly the same neighborhood or nearby, and you look at a co-op apartment, certainly in, I'll say, parts of Queens and parts of Brooklyn, parts of Queens and parts of Brooklyn, the Bronx, certainly there's middle class, working class co-ops that are affordable $300,000, $400,000. And that's an entree to home ownership and that, to me, is a key element and key backbone of New York City and I call it a precious housing stock that should be protected and treasured by the New York City and I call it a precious housing stock that should be protected and treasured by the New York City Council and the mayor, and that's not normally how it goes.
Speaker 3:What are the pressures right now that co-ops and condos, especially co-ops, are facing right now?
Speaker 1:You have the pressure of running a housing facility and again they say all politics is local. Well, what's more local than the four walls that you're sitting around, that the second you step out, everything you see is owned by your co-op board and yourself as a part owner. So there is the pressure of the management side of it, the fiscal side of it, to have a well-run co-op business and that's a very important thing. Look at any co-op and if there's a sister rental property down the block and take a look, you can tell the co-op is always much better kept and much better maintained because there's a pride of authorship, of ownership there. Then of course, there's the other pressures of new york city and new york state and federal compliance with the myriad of local laws, of unfunded mandates, of of Just silly legislation that has nothing to do with helping the co-ops. And I would say you know, one of the probably the biggest liability or the biggest exposure boards have now is dealing with the myriad of regulations, unfunded mandates and the like.
Speaker 3:For the people out there, listening what is local, how does local law 97 impact them and what have you been doing to shore up co-ops and compliance and understanding, managing and navigating? Local Law 97 is and can be and probably will be to them?
Speaker 1:Local Law 97 is called the Climate Mobilization Act, a well-intentioned statute designed to bring New York City down to zero carbon emissions by the year 2050, which is also the state's goal. And I have a grandchild and I want them to live in a clean, healthy world with a clean environment. And it has nothing to do with politics, with respect to what I'm about to say. It has to do with reality and practicality. As one of my colleagues once said, you can't worry about the environment if you can't pay your electric bills. So this is a question of being able to pay your bills. Local Law 97 was passed in 2019, and it was announced on Earth Day to great fanfare by Mayor de Blasio and the city council. It passed 49 to 2 landmark legislation Great press, it sounds great, looks great, and myself and some of our other advocates, who are members of the president's Copen Condo Council, which I'm sure we'll touch on during the course of this show we met with sponsors of the bill and we said how is this going to affect the finances of the co-op? And the answer we always got is don't worry, the law is just the general outline and then we'll put in regulations and everything will be fine. So here we are, fast forward six years, almost six years later.
Speaker 1:Basically, many co-ops have done it.
Speaker 1:You know their due diligence in trying to comply with the law in terms of studies, and the result has been if a co-op wants to comply with Local Law 97, they are threatened with potential insolvency and bankruptcy.
Speaker 1:It calls for the only way to truly comply with it is to fully electrify, which is not feasible both physically and economically. And there's been no movement, there's been no let up, there's been no conciliation from the New York City government. And any time you criticize or try to make a change to Local 197, you get a knee jerk reaction from what I call the electrification industry. There's a lot of people making a lot of money here, and also the so-called environmental lobby, which, again, a lot of them are professional lobbyists. And we are just the co-op movement, is just a grassroots movement with little or no backing, and we're trying to get the word out. And once we do get the word out, we do turn people around, because once you see the numbers, it's indisputable that this is going to be a very difficult, impossible task and we're working very hard to get reforms to Local Law 97.
Speaker 3:Now, considering that one out of five people live in these housing situations and if you think about that one out of five people are related to other people, you have a lot of people, a gigantic voting block of people who could be writing letters, putting pressure on politicians. It could be harnessed. What is your role in stewarding that endeavor?
Speaker 1:that endeavor 15 years ago. The tax bills came out, valuations which come out in January, and Northeast Queens got whacked Literally 100% increase in valuations for Crider House, le Harve and some of the other large co-ops. It coalesced that region of the city and the president's called Pocondo Council, although it was an existing entity, took off as a political force and we've been working diligently on numerous issues. I'm the legal advisor and executive member, bob Friedrich is the founder of the entity and Warren Schreiber and Bob Friedrich are the co-presidents and we've worked on a plethora of issues. Local on 97 has been a particular sort of landmark issue, signature issue, whatever you want to call it the last couple of years. To get the word out is not easy. We're not funded, so we don't have media companies, we don't have lobbyists, we're pure grassroots and I will say that we've expanded our reach well into Queens and now we're working with large co-ops in Manhattan also and we have been talking to co-ops in the Bronx. There are other organizations that we're now talking to and partnership with and our goal is to have a citywide voice. I will tell you just coincidentally, or what have you.
Speaker 1:We did meet. I did meet with Mayor Adams on co-op issues about three weeks ago and we were having a pretty similar conversation that you and I are having right now on many of the same subjects, and the first thing he said to me is that's a lot of people, that's a lot of power. And then we met with Andrew Cuomo, governor Cuomo. He met with a group of 26 board presidents representing almost 30,000 units of co-op housing in Glen Oaks. It was an impressive meeting. He was impressed.
Speaker 1:I don't think we were on his radar or on his agenda. I think we are now and I have been in touch with the staff and I did mention the 22% that you mentioned of housing in New York City and he said you guys have been in touch with the staff. And I did mention you know the 22% that you mentioned of housing in New York City and he said you guys have a lot of power. You don't even know it. I said we do know it, we just don't know how to harness it. So the goal is to try to harness it little by little. Whatever help this podcast does, again, it'll be available to a large swath of co-op housing and it will make its way around and hopefully we will engage a lot of people on this, whose voices would not be heard otherwise.
Speaker 3:What kinds of guests do you contemplate down the road?
Speaker 1:40 years in the Rolodex. For you, young people, that's a thing we used to fill out cards and sit on your desk Now.
Speaker 1:I guess it's your outlook folder there. So certainly a discussion. And it's an opportunity also for them to learn about co-ops, because if they're going to come on a podcast like this, they're going to have to know something In addition to elected officials industry professionals, attorneys, accountants, property managers. I would invite environmental groups that oppose any legislation that we've introduced on Local Law 97 or anything else, just to hear their point of view and maybe we can have an interesting discussion. One thing I pride myself on is you know you're allowed to disagree with me. I will not call you a name and I understand everybody's. Everybody gets, you know, everyone's gets paid from somewhere. Everyone's. You know everyone has a vantage point. Whether it's it falls in line with what I'm thinking and our community is thinking, it doesn't matter. You know, and I will invite anybody that is part of this community. We'll have a voice here.
Speaker 3:And little old ladies who've been in co-op for 50, 60, 70 years.
Speaker 1:I will if they want to, if they know how to turn their computer on, but I will. And one thing I also, you know, I'm interested in, you know, and I think you and I discussed this outside this podcast is I know some board members that grew up in their co-ops and I'd love to hear you know just the background of what it was like in the 50s, 60s or 70s and now living there as an adult and a leader. And I think these types of things humanize everything that we're doing.
Speaker 3:When you started you said that you, at the age of 28, were a president of a co-op, but you never really filled in the rest of the story about your legal career, maybe just to kind of. So where are we now? Because you apparently have a tremendous group of co-op clients and connections and associations, do you want to just kind of embellish about that a little bit?
Speaker 1:I'll give you the short answer because I'm sure we're running somewhat out of time here. So I started in a general practice firm where I think I was making $13,000 and half of what I could generate. So I was motivated to bring in business and I've worked on every kind of law case you can imagine. And Mark and I my partner, mark Hankin and I we always pride ourselves on two guys from Queens with no pedigree and that's sort of our mantra. We always had a few co-op clients. And starting around 2000, about 25 years ago, it started building and once you get a Deepdale and a Cleaview Gardens and for those of you who don't know, those are 1,400 units and 1,800 unit co-ops which we got around it sounds funny around the turn of the century. At that point you just stop doing everything else. And from there it's just grown to a point that's beyond our imagination. And when I realized I would say maybe 15 years ago that, representing a certain client base that's somewhat concentrated in in Northeast Queens, I could leverage that if I got everybody together on certain issues and leverage that into an advocacy, political clout, so to speak. And that's where I started working with the president's co-op and condo council. And since then I mean I work with the real estate board in New York.
Speaker 1:I partnered with, I'm on the Queens County bar co-op and condo chairperson, co-chairperson. I'm on the New York City bar co-op legislative committee. I you know so. So I I don't rest. There's so many issues that I think our clients, my clients, need to know about. Every board meeting I go to, I give a legislative update because the legislation can affect them as much as anything else that happens.
Speaker 1:And I'll give one example. Clearview Gardens where you're I think you're sitting at or near Clearview, I sound like a lawyer at or near Clearview Gardens had had major issues with their ground lease, and we'll probably do an episode on this when we get Tom's. I want to get Congress member Swazi. So I gave one, I gave away one of our future guests and they they're on a ground lease that has an extension that they could exercise in 2050. So the first period and this is how time flies expires in 2050, but you can't exercise the extension until then.
Speaker 1:Set it right in the ground lease. Fannie Mae says oh, you only have 25 years left on your ground lease, you don't qualify, we're not going to give you loans. This is for people buying there and it was exhaustive and we went through major hoops with Fannie Mae directly and got nowhere Again. That's a whole episode right there. So what we did was we went to the Ed Braunstein Assemblymember Braunstein, new York State Senate, a very influential member. He's been there 15 years and he is known as the co-op guy, co-op guru of the Assembly, and Toby Ann Savitsky in the State Senate, who is just Assembly, and Toby Ancevitzky in the state Senate, who is just don't mess with her, she is a power in the New York State Senate and they were familiar with the issues because they helped us petition Fannie Mae to no avail. Anyway, we drafted a very simple piece of legislation just basically saying the co-ops can exercise their option to extend now.
Speaker 1:Very simple, and it passed last year and basically saved 10,000 units of housing that we've identified both in Clearview Gardens, in Hilltop Village, beach Hills and in Westchester. We identified several units there. So here is something where, when you have your ear to the ground, you're listening to your clients and you see their problems. Uh, instead of just throwing your hands in the air or running to court or or something else. We were, I was able to leverage these relationships and and and the cloud of of the client base that I have and the president's council into legislation that became law and now, no problem, fannie Mae approved. And just one final thing on that we had a meeting with Fannie Mae on something else, which again, we'll make an episode out of that, and we were talking about it.
Speaker 1:So I actually was on Fannie Mae, which is like this faceless entity I picture an evil lair with Dr Evil in there in some windowless building off the Beltway and I was on. I was in a meeting with Fannie Mae and there was like 10 people there. They were very nice. So one of the guys says to me from Fannie Mae oh, you're the one that was instrumental in that legislation. I said yes. He said thank you very much, you brought clarity to an issue and you took the load off us and I was like, oh, I had no idea, you cared that's nice, that's very nice.
Speaker 3:You should, you should be very proud of that it was.
Speaker 1:it was a pinnacle moment in my career and I am I'm extremely proud that I could help so many people.
Speaker 3:And for the people who could not be on the air to thank you. I'll thank you on their behalf.
Speaker 1:Thank you, sir.
Speaker 3:There you go.
Speaker 1:So, richard, I want to thank you for hosting, co-hosting. I look forward to working with you on future podcasts hosting. I look forward to working with you on future podcasts. I'm working on getting exciting guests, at least exciting to me and you. Maybe not everybody. Some will be well-known figures, some won't be. Some will be well-known figures in a particular community and that's okay. Again, the purpose of this is to share information within a particular community that otherwise would not be talking to each other.
Speaker 3:Look, I've known you a long time, I really like working with you and I actually think you will be bringing great information to people out there in a information desert.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much.
Speaker 3:All right. So I guess what we say in the radio is we'll see you next time.